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mat1992

General MBB thread 2021-22

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22 hours ago, AtlantaTiger said:

Love my Towson Tigers and am extremely proud of their recent performances.  However, as a well-documented skeptic (critic) of Coach Skerry, the conference tourney is all that matters.  He needs to win the conference tourney this year. No excuses, no almosts, no maybes and no buts.....WIN. THE. TOURNAMENT.  He's had too many years and too many chances.

 

GO TIGERS!!

 

 

I understand this sentiment, and believe me making the NCAA Tournament is the most important goal for everyone here. However, the NET rankings, KenPom rankings, playing well in non-conference play, being a regular-conference contender annually and putting a quality team that can compete in games like the Ohio State matchup earlier this year are all examples of how you build a sustainably successful program.

I don't want to make the NCAA Tournament and wait another 30 years for another. I want to build this into a consistently successful program that we can get excited about year in and year out. That is why some of these other steps are just as important as success in the conference tournament, which can be a crapshoot and does not always produce a deserving winner. The road to building a successful basketball program is not nearly as daunting as doing so in the current football landscape. I am hoping this year can not only yield a trip to the the NCAA Tournament, but also act as a foundation for future success. I do realize that making the NCAA Tournament is the most important step in this process, but the other building blocks are huge parts of it and acting like everything is a zero-sum game for mid-majors is somewhat short-sighted. 

Hopefully, this conversation will be pointless and we will all be celebrating a trip to the NCAA Tournament in March, but as many of us have said there is a long way to go. It has been a fun year so far, and hopefully that continues. 

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12 minutes ago, Tiger93 said:

I understand this sentiment, and believe me making the NCAA Tournament is the most important goal for everyone here. However, the NET rankings, KenPom rankings, playing well in non-conference play, being a regular-conference contender annually and putting a quality team that can compete in games like the Ohio State matchup earlier this year are all examples of how you build a sustainably successful program.

I don't want to make the NCAA Tournament and wait another 30 years for another. I want to build this into a consistently successful program that we can get excited about year in and year out. That is why some of these other steps are just as important as success in the conference tournament, which can be a crapshoot and does not always produce a deserving winner. The road to building a successful basketball program is not nearly as daunting as doing so in the current football landscape. I am hoping this year can not only yield a trip to the the NCAA Tournament, but also act as a foundation for future success. I do realize that making the NCAA Tournament is the most important step in this process, but the other building blocks are huge parts of it and acting like everything is a zero-sum game for mid-majors is somewhat short-sighted. 

Hopefully, this conversation will be pointless and we will all be celebrating a trip to the NCAA Tournament in March, but as many of us have said there is a long way to go. It has been a fun year so far, and hopefully that continues. 

Some believe the steps are built already. As pessimistic as I am, I can agree a bit. Arena, good students who graduate, community service etc.  the last thing to do is win. It’s beyond time to do so. A decade and being the second longest tenured coach in the league, it’s time. March hasn’t been kind. But it hasn’t be a fluke. We got pretty bad in a lot of the games.

most coaches win and then move on the mid major level. Ours has won a bit but never anything of value and is still here. With the caa letting in a ton of teams we now have a bigger crapshoot for the the bid than before. 

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45 minutes ago, TuTigers2012 said:

Some believe the steps are built already. As pessimistic as I am, I can agree a bit. Arena, good students who graduate, community service etc.  the last thing to do is win. It’s beyond time to do so. A decade and being the second longest tenured coach in the league, it’s time. March hasn’t been kind. But it hasn’t be a fluke. We got pretty bad in a lot of the games.

most coaches win and then move on the mid major level. Ours has won a bit but never anything of value and is still here. With the caa letting in a ton of teams we now have a bigger crapshoot for the the bid than before. 

Agreed, but as much as the NCAA Tournament or bust is the ultimate goal it should not be the only focus of success. Having the whole season rest on a crapshoot of 3/4 games and blowing off what happens in the other 30+ games is not really logical. I do get that we can't full claim success until we accomplish the goal of getting to the NCAA Tournament, but I view the season as three different portions to measure success, as I think many others do in some way, shape or form. 

1) Non-conference play - This year we entered conference play with a NET rating in the 70s and only had losses to really good USF and Ohio State teams, which I consider extremely successful. Of course, the negative was a brutally bad start to Monmouth (who is good, but does not excuse the start) and some poor late-game execution against Pittsburgh. I would say I would give us a B+ for what we did in non-conference play leading into conference play. 

2) Conference play - We are still very early in this process, but so far we have been pretty solid minus some late-game shakiness against Drexel and even a little against Northeastern. It remains to be seen what we do here, but so far so good. 

3) Conference Tournament - This is where we can get the ultimate reward and I get why everyone wants it to be the end all be all, but to me it is like the final exam to our season. We can't have a A or B+ season without accomplishing what we want, but it doesn't just become an "F" season because we performed poorly in my opinion. 

Also, if we make the NCAA Tournament this year we might actually be able to be a 13 or 14 seed (with our NET ranking) where an upset could be a remote possibility (I know UMBC won as a No 16 seed, but that may not happen again for a while). That seeding would be based on the strength of our regular-season. If we can win the regular-season title (which is still very far away as a goal), we can at least clinch a shot at playing in the NIT even if we fall short in the conference tournament. To me this would also be a good step for our program (the other postseason tournaments have some entertainment value, but I am done giving them much meaning as steps forward for the program). 

Again, we all want the same thing but I would rather hold ourselves to higher standard all year long then only focusing on winning the 3/4 games in our conference tournament. As fun as that will be when the time comes, and it will happen at some point in my lifetime. 

Also, in your post I think you make it sound like I am referencing resources, funding, budget and other parts of the building process. I know those are important, but I am only focusing on things we can accomplish on the court that give us confidence to continue to build and be better as a program. NET rankings based on performance, upsets, KenPom rankings based on performance, conference-record and non-conference success are the part that I am focusing on in this conversation. Of course, the other aspects are a whole different conversation that could take up a lot of space on this board too. 

I am not trying to dismiss the importance of accomplishing a trip to the NCAA Tournament, I just get annoyed when it is the only measure anyone wants to use. I hope we all post after these games and are enjoying this season because we get excited when this team wins in the regular-season too, and I think that is true. 

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42 minutes ago, Tiger93 said:

Agreed, but as much as the NCAA Tournament or bust is the ultimate goal it should not be the only focus of success. Having the whole season rest on a crapshoot of 3/4 games and blowing off what happens in the other 30+ games is not really logical. I do get that we can't full claim success until we accomplish the goal of getting to the NCAA Tournament, but I view the season as three different portions to measure success, as I think many others do in some way, shape or form. 

1) Non-conference play - This year we entered conference play with a NET rating in the 70s and only had losses to really good USF and Ohio State teams, which I consider extremely successful. Of course, the negative was a brutally bad start to Monmouth (who is good, but does not excuse the start) and some poor late-game execution against Pittsburgh. I would say I would give us a B+ for what we did in non-conference play leading into conference play. 

2) Conference play - We are still very early in this process, but so far we have been pretty solid minus some late-game shakiness against Drexel and even a little against Northeastern. It remains to be seen what we do here, but so far so good. 

3) Conference Tournament - This is where we can get the ultimate reward and I get why everyone wants it to be the end all be all, but to me it is like the final exam to our season. We can't have a A or B+ season without accomplishing what we want, but it doesn't just become an "F" season because we performed poorly in my opinion. 

Also, if we make the NCAA Tournament this year we might actually be able to be a 13 or 14 seed (with our NET ranking) where an upset could be a remote possibility (I know UMBC won as a No 16 seed, but that may not happen again for a while). That seeding would be based on the strength of our regular-season. If we can win the regular-season title (which is still very far away as a goal), we can at least clinch a shot at playing in the NIT even if we fall short in the conference tournament. To me this would also be a good step for our program (the other postseason tournaments have some entertainment value, but I am done giving them much meaning as steps forward for the program). 

Again, we all want the same thing but I would rather hold ourselves to higher standard all year long then only focusing on winning the 3/4 games in our conference tournament. As fun as that will be when the time comes, and it will happen at some point in my lifetime. 

Also, in your post I think you make it sound like I am referencing resources, funding, budget and other parts of the building process. I know those are important, but I am only focusing on things we can accomplish on the court that give us confidence to continue to build and be better as a program. NET rankings based on performance, upsets, KenPom rankings based on performance, conference-record and non-conference success are the part that I am focusing on in this conversation. Of course, the other aspects are a whole different conversation that could take up a lot of space on this board too. 

I am not trying to dismiss the importance of accomplishing a trip to the NCAA Tournament, I just get annoyed when it is the only measure anyone wants to use. I hope we all post after these games and are enjoying this season because we get excited when this team wins in the regular-season too, and I think that is true. 

I think your breaking the season down into component parts is a good way to look at things. I would simply add that perhaps the importance of each segment grows from least important (OOC play) to most important (at least in determining who goes dancing in our 1-bid league)-the conference tournament. 

As much as I want us to get back to the dance, my immediate goal is to finish 1st in the regular season, to secure, at a minimum, an NIT bid. 

Notwithstanding PS’s dreadful conference tournament record, the vagaries of what can happen in a 3-day tournament shouldn’t necessarily render a successful regular season a failure. 

So, I say goal #1 is finish first in the regular season conference standings. If that happens, then it’s survive and advance in the conference tournament.


 

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1 hour ago, Tiger93 said:

Agreed, but as much as the NCAA Tournament or bust is the ultimate goal it should not be the only focus of success. Having the whole season rest on a crapshoot of 3/4 games and blowing off what happens in the other 30+ games is not really logical. I do get that we can't full claim success until we accomplish the goal of getting to the NCAA Tournament, but I view the season as three different portions to measure success, as I think many others do in some way, shape or form. 

1) Non-conference play - This year we entered conference play with a NET rating in the 70s and only had losses to really good USF and Ohio State teams, which I consider extremely successful. Of course, the negative was a brutally bad start to Monmouth (who is good, but does not excuse the start) and some poor late-game execution against Pittsburgh. I would say I would give us a B+ for what we did in non-conference play leading into conference play. 

2) Conference play - We are still very early in this process, but so far we have been pretty solid minus some late-game shakiness against Drexel and even a little against Northeastern. It remains to be seen what we do here, but so far so good. 

3) Conference Tournament - This is where we can get the ultimate reward and I get why everyone wants it to be the end all be all, but to me it is like the final exam to our season. We can't have a A or B+ season without accomplishing what we want, but it doesn't just become an "F" season because we performed poorly in my opinion. 

Also, if we make the NCAA Tournament this year we might actually be able to be a 13 or 14 seed (with our NET ranking) where an upset could be a remote possibility (I know UMBC won as a No 16 seed, but that may not happen again for a while). That seeding would be based on the strength of our regular-season. If we can win the regular-season title (which is still very far away as a goal), we can at least clinch a shot at playing in the NIT even if we fall short in the conference tournament. To me this would also be a good step for our program (the other postseason tournaments have some entertainment value, but I am done giving them much meaning as steps forward for the program). 

Again, we all want the same thing but I would rather hold ourselves to higher standard all year long then only focusing on winning the 3/4 games in our conference tournament. As fun as that will be when the time comes, and it will happen at some point in my lifetime. 

Also, in your post I think you make it sound like I am referencing resources, funding, budget and other parts of the building process. I know those are important, but I am only focusing on things we can accomplish on the court that give us confidence to continue to build and be better as a program. NET rankings based on performance, upsets, KenPom rankings based on performance, conference-record and non-conference success are the part that I am focusing on in this conversation. Of course, the other aspects are a whole different conversation that could take up a lot of space on this board too. 

I am not trying to dismiss the importance of accomplishing a trip to the NCAA Tournament, I just get annoyed when it is the only measure anyone wants to use. I hope we all post after these games and are enjoying this season because we get excited when this team wins in the regular-season too, and I think that is true. 

 

11 minutes ago, TSU88 said:

I think your breaking the season down into component parts is a good way to look at things. I would simply add that perhaps the importance of each segment grows from least important (OOC play) to most important (at least in determining who goes dancing in our 1-bid league)-the conference tournament. 

As much as I want us to get back to the dance, my immediate goal is to finish 1st in the regular season, to secure, at a minimum, an NIT bid. 

Notwithstanding PS’s dreadful conference tournament record, the vagaries of what can happen in a 3-day tournament shouldn’t necessarily render a successful regular season a failure. 

So, I say goal #1 is finish first in the regular season conference standings. If that happens, then it’s survive and advance in the conference tournament.


 

Both good points. The goal should and always be to make the tournament. Our ooc was good. The strength of schedule was meh (185ish of 356). But we did win and compete on the road which is big.  Only navy has more road wins this season.  
until last year the caa tournament hasn’t really been a crapshoot. 1-3 seeds have won it like 95% of the time.  We have been awful in March and some were embarrassingly so. We haven’t played as the 8 seed vs the 1. The seeding was close and or in favor and we have yaked on ourselves.

Sad thing is that we were closer to the ncaat my freshman year when we were down 2 or 3 with about 2.5 left and cam long hit a step back three with the shot clock expiring. That was a great run from a bad team. But seeing that dagger first hand in the colosseum still hurts 

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14 hours ago, TuTigers2012 said:

 

Both good points. The goal should and always be to make the tournament. Our ooc was good. The strength of schedule was meh (185ish of 356). But we did win and compete on the road which is big.  Only navy has more road wins this season.  
until last year the caa tournament hasn’t really been a crapshoot. 1-3 seeds have won it like 95% of the time.  We have been awful in March and some were embarrassingly so. We haven’t played as the 8 seed vs the 1. The seeding was close and or in favor and we have yaked on ourselves.

Sad thing is that we were closer to the ncaat my freshman year when we were down 2 or 3 with about 2.5 left and cam long hit a step back three with the shot clock expiring. That was a great run from a bad team. But seeing that dagger first hand in the colosseum still hurts 

I generally agree with everything that has been said.  BUT, success in March doesn't only mean getting to the tourney for me.  If we win the 1 seed, play well in the tourney, get to the finals and play well I think I am okay with it.  Still get a shot in the NIT (not ideal) but at least we are making progress towards getting there.  Everyone on this board has been disappointed with what we have done in the conference tourney.  Winning a couple games and playing in the finals is still an accomplishment, while not the pinnacle, for me at least. 

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4 minutes ago, griggey20 said:

I generally agree with everything that has been said.  BUT, success in March doesn't only mean getting to the tourney for me.  If we win the 1 seed, play well in the tourney, get to the finals and play well I think I am okay with it.  Still get a shot in the NIT (not ideal) but at least we are making progress towards getting there.  Everyone on this board has been disappointed with what we have done in the conference tourney.  Winning a couple games and playing in the finals is still an accomplishment, while not the pinnacle, for me at least. 

Depends. If we are one seed and lose to a worse team in the final, that isn’t a success. But if we are say a 5 seed and make a run to the finals, then yes it would be a success. 

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14 hours ago, mat1992 said:

 

Love that arena and wish I lived back that way to attend.  Love the sauce reference as cheesy as it may seem.  Nice puff piece on the team….  keep it rolling.   

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